The Greatest Bristolian
Over the generations men and women have been raised up in Bristol who have had a profound impact on human history. Isambard Kingdom Brunel, always over budget, never to schedule, had a global impact through his visionary leadership. Hannah More, as a well connected member of the establishment, played a crucial role supporting William Wilberforce and paving the way for the abolition of slavery. And George Muller established the model of caring for orphans and preparing them for fruitful lives. However, all these fall under the shadow of Bristol’s greatest, George Whitfield.
George Whitfield went onto the streets and into the fields to preach the Gospel. At Kingswood he preached to around 20,000, many miners, and thousands are said to have been saved. His passion was for the lost, the unsaved and the common man. He left the UK for a second time in 1740 and led the Christian movement in the USA that became known as the Great Awakening. This was the Christian foundation on which USA might was established and made it the greatest nation on earth prevailing against Nazism and the Stalinist might of the Socialist Soviet Republic. He developed a lifelong friendship with Benjamin Franklin.
George was born around 40 years after the man widely recognised as the greatest scientist of all time. However, he and Isaac had a shared understanding of one crucial area, that of creation. They had the wit and the humility to accept that order cannot somehow emerge from chaos, that nothing cannot produce something and that if you have a design then you inevitably have a designer. Here’s Newton’s take on the matter the post-modern mind is so determined to ignore:
“Did blind chance know that there was light and what was its refraction and fit the eyes of all creatures after the most curious manner to make use of it? These and such like considerations always have and ever will prevail with man kind to believe that there is a being who made all things and has all things in his power and who is therefore to be feared.”
“He who thinks half-heatedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.”
~Sir Isaac Newton~
We are at present celebrating Bristol’s Lesbian, Bi-sexual-gay-transgender history with details like this:
1746 Bristol was scandalised by the case of Mary Hamilton, the Female Husband, who was convicted of fraud at Taunton for posing as a man and marrying several women, including one in Bristol.
1752 September 19: Richard Arnold, a former pub landlord aged about 60, was caught having sex with William Critchett, a footman aged about 20, in a back room at the Swan alehouse in Broad Street. Both were convicted of felony and buggery in August 1753 and were hanged.
Meanwhile George Whitfield’s memory, who preached a message of salvation for all nations, tongues, tribes and sexual proclivities, passes unnoticed. Welcome to the post-modern cultural mandate.
thewisethingtodo 
He sounds like a great man…
But why do you think he should be celebrated as part of Bristol’s Lesbian, Bi-sexual-gay-transgender history?
Was he gay?
Thank you, that’s a great question. To answer I can look to Whitfield’s words and actions that betray the condition of his heart. This is what was said, when Goerge Whitfield died, by another from Bristol who had profound influence on human history, John Wesley:
His (Whitfield’s) fundamental point was, “Give God all the glory of whatever is good in man;” and, “In the business of salvation, set Christ as high and man as low as possible.” With this point, he and his friends at Oxford, the original Methodists, so called, set out. Their grand principle was, there is no power (by nature) and no merit in man. They insisted, all power to think, speak, or act aright, is in and from the Spirit of Christ; and all merit is (not in man, how high soever in grace, but merely) in the blood of Christ. So he and they taught: there is no power in man, till it is given him from above, to do one good work, to speak one good word, or to form one good desire. For it is not enough to say, all men are sick of sin: no, we are all “dead in trespasses and sins.” It follows, that all the children of men are, “by nature, children of wrath.” We are all “guilty before God,” liable to death temporal and eternal.
And we are all helpless, both with regard to the power and to the guilt of sin. “For who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?” None less than the Almighty. Who can raise those that are dead, spiritually dead in sin? None but He who raised us from the dust of the earth. But on what consideration will He do this? “Not for works of righteousness that we have done.” “The dead cannot praise Thee, O Lord;” nor do anything for the sake of which they should be raised to life. Whatever, therefore, God does, He does it merely for the sake of His well-beloved Son: “He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities.” He Himself “bore” all “our sins in His own body upon the tree.” He “was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” Here then is the sole meritorious cause of every blessing we do or can enjoy; in particular of our pardon and acceptance with God, of our full and free justification. But by what means do we become interested in what Christ has done and suffered? “Not by works, lest any man should boast;” but by faith alone. “We conclude,” says the Apostle, “that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the law.” And “to as many as” thus “receive Him, giveth He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believe in His name; who are born, not of the will of man, but of God.”
And “except a man be” thus “born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” But all who are thus “born of the Spirit” have “the kingdom of God within them.” Christ sets up His kingdom in their hearts; “righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.” That “mind is in them, which was in Christ Jesus,” enabling them to “walk as Christ also walked.” His indwelling Spirit makes them both holy in heart, and “holy in all manner of conversation.” But still, seeing all this is a free gift, through the righteousness and blood of Christ, there is eternally the same reason to remember, “He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”
We can see that Whitfield demonsrated a high view of God in his lifestyle and preaching. I am not the judge of his heart, though I can say with confidence that despite his sexual proclivities or any temptations he may have faced, the historical evidence testifys that he lived a repentant life. He remained faithful to Jesus Christ, putting his faith and trust in Him as the Lord and Saviour of his life, and enjoyed a monogomous relationship with his wife.
He proclaimed a saving message for all, LBGT included, making a lasting impact on human history. He is a man I would encourage all Bristolians to learn about as a forefather who made a dramatic impact on the lives that otherwise were without hope.
With regard to your comment…
“Meanwhile George Whitfield’s memory, who preached a message of salvation for all nations, tongues, tribes and sexual proclivities, passes unnoticed.”
Firstly as Whitefield was a Calvinist, (and an 18th century one at that) he would have viewed premarital sex between heterosexual partners as sinful. Heaven knows what he would have thought regarding homosexuality. If he ever did preach ‘a message of salvation for… sexual proclivities’ it would have been “Stop it! Never do it again! Repent or you will burn in Hell forever!”
Secondly, regarding your claim that he “preached a message of salvation for all nations, tongues, tribes”…
Slavery was outlawed in Georgia in the early 18th century. In 1749 however, George Whitefield campaigned for its legalisation, claiming that Georgia would never be prosperous unless farms were able to use slaves. He began his fourth visit to America in 1751 advocating slavery, viewing its re-legalisation as necessary to make his plantation profitable. Partly through his campaigns, it was re-legalised in 1751. Whitefield then purchased slaves claiming that, “hot countries cannot be cultivated without negroes.”
Thirdly, it’s Whitefield not Whitfield. If you truly believe he’s a great man, at least try to get his name right.
Finally, you didn’t answer my question.
Why do you think he should be celebrated as part of Bristol’s Lesbian, Bi-sexual-gay-transgender history?
Thank you, you are right, I would do well to at least spell his name correctly. I am sorry my endeavour to answer your question was unsatisfactory. Thank you for the opportunity to try again. You partly answered it yourself through your observation that heaven knows what he would have thought about homosexuality; heaven certainly does know. He wouldn’t need to be a Calvinist to understand the purpose of the sexual union, simply being a christian would have been enough.
As a faithful Bible teacher he would have taken the wisdom offered by God in His Word and taken sex as a gift to be enjoyed in the way ordained. He would have known that sex was created for enjoyment between one man and one woman within a lifelong marital covenant. There is wisdom in God’s way as it allows people protection from the diseases, neglect and exploitation that is rife today as a consequence of our disobedience.
Can you apply your imagination to seeing how healthier our families and society would be if sex was restricted, as it was intended, to the protection of marriage? Imagine, no need for STD clinics, anti-viral AIDs drugs, no porn industry, no sexual slavery, pedophiles, incest or adultery. Families with tight bonds and no more sexual infidelity, the number one killer of marriages. Fathers not having to live with the shame of being porn addicts when they are supposed to be sharing wisdom and counsel with daughters and sons as they approach sexual maturity. Divorce courts, family solicitors, and abortion (Abortury) clinics out of business. My list goes on and wow, that’s a stunning heavenly thought of a world obedient to God’s purpose for marriage, wow, beautiful.
But mankind is sick, depraved and perverted right from the outset of human history. Caen murdered Abel, Sodom and Gomorrah were off the plot, Abraham pimped out his wife and his son followed suit. Eventually we come right to the City of Corinth where we learn of temple prostitution and all kinds of crazy sexual exploits. Now that’s the big idea that’s worthy of celebration by the LBGT community is it not? Despite mankind’s proclivity to sin, and you can name your own, Jesus died for us, so whoever repents and trusts in him will be saved. Let’s be honest with each other, you only need tell one lie to be liar, steal one item and what are you? take God’s name in vain once and you are a blasphemer. By the way the Bible says that is a heinous crime and God will hold no one guiltless, who takes his name in vain.
That’s the celebration. We are all guilty and will one day stand before God to give an account for every thought, word and deed. Justice will prevail and a price will be paid for our crimes, and yet God’s mercy abounds. The fornicator, the liar, the thief and the unbeliever will have their place in the lake of fire if they die in their sins. However, Jesus took our punishment, paid our fine at the Cross on Calvary so that we can be lawfully released, the Just Judge of all things can dismiss our case because our fine has been paid. Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender, liar, fornicator, or proud intellectual, we can all repent, put our sins behind us, trust in the Lord Jesus, like you would trust in a parachute and be a new creation. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, he esteems a humble and contrite spirit. Today is the day of salvation, get on your face before God, confess your sins, forsake them, put on Jesus Christ and start living for the purpose and meaning that God intended.
As for slavery there is far more to Whitefield’s view and attitude to slavery than you give him credit. You need to look at the situation in the context of his whole life before judging too harshly. He has already faced his judge to give his account, and was prepared to do so. The question is are you?
The fact is that in the first paragraph of your post, you openly declare that Hannah More,( who helped pave the way for the abolition of slavery in the UK), falls under the shadow of George Whitefield. (A man who helped re-introduce slavery to parts of the USA.)
There were many people in the US, before, during and after Whitefield’s lifetime that found slavery abhorrent. The Quakers of the time went so far as to declare it anti-Christian. You however seem to think that Whitefield was Bristol’s greatest.
I find your views genuinely disturbing.
All of my views? If you can let me know which views disturb you I can seek to settle them. Is it the comment that More falls under the shadow of Whitefield? I have endeavoured to clarify that by inviting you to look at all of Whitefield’s life. Slave owner he was but his treatment and attitude to his slaves revealed his heart. It is disingenuous to reach a judgement on an incomplete caricature of a man’s life. Or are you disturbed by my invitation to use your imagination:
“Can you apply your imagination to seeing how healthier our families and society would be if sex was restricted, as it was intended, to the protection of marriage? Imagine, no need for STD clinics, anti-viral AIDs drugs, no porn industry, no sexual slavery, pedophiles, incest or adultery. Families with tight bonds and no more sexual infidelity, the number one killer of marriages. Fathers not having to live with the shame of being porn addicts when they are supposed to be sharing wisdom and counsel with daughters and sons as they approach sexual maturity. Divorce courts, family solicitors, and abortion (Abortury) clinics out of business. My list goes on and wow, that’s a stunning heavenly thought of a world obedient to God’s purpose for marriage, wow, beautiful.”
What is it that disturbs you?
Adrian, can I ask you to use your imagination?
Imagine if you please, that you are back living in Africa…
I arrive at your village and take your wife away from you. If you resist, I shall kill you. I shall take your beautiful wife many thousands of miles away and you will never see her again. The trip will be arduous and she may not survive. But don’t worry, because I shall sell her to a wonderful man who will treat her well, so long as she does what she is told and works hard throughout the day.
Next, I will come back and take your sons because due to this great man, slavery in Georgia is now legal and there is much demand for healthy young Africans. Unfortunately, I am not going to sell your boys to the wonderful man as he has enough slaves now. I am going to sell your boys to a thoroughly evil, but still highly respected landowner. They will be beaten on a regular basis and will almost certainly die within a year. But don’t worry because your wife is still being treated well by the great man. In fact his attitude towards her reveals his heart.
Adrian, as you sit alone in your mud hut, thinking of your absent wife and sons, you must feel so very grateful to the great Bristolian. This wonderful man who now owns your wife. It’s a shame your boys will die but this is a small price to pay for the ‘comfortable’ life your wife now leads.
It’s hard to express just how great George Whitefield was. He was such a good man that he actually disapproved of slaves being transported from Africa. He disapproved so much that he bought as many as he could so that they could have ‘comfortable’ lives.
Whitefield was a Godly man and knew that the Bible teaches that only Israelites should not be slaves…
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.
You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.
You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.
You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.”
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Furthermore, Whitefield was far kinder than he needed to have been as the Bible also teaches us that…
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.
If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.”
(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
There are some that would say that slavery is immoral in any age, however George Whitefield and Adrian Clark know that slavery is not only justifiable but Godly.
You are right to paint a vivid illustration of the cruelty of slavery, thank you. We would be in agreement that Whitefield made the wrong decision to lobby for legalisation of slavery for the reasons of fuelling a terrible trade. It reminds me of the Dutch governments legalisation of prostitution in a vain effort to create better working conditions for the women whose bodies are traded. The results have been increases in people trafficking and abuse. The sex industry in Amsterdam is more destructive and problematic than it has ever been. Did you know that more people are globally traded as slaves today than ever before?
We could engage in a Bible study of slavery if you wish. It would reveal the difference between the cruel form of incarceration familiar from the Americas or the later stages of the Israelites captivity in Egypt and the indentured servitude common in the Bible. The proof texting you used above needs context. These were the first laws laid down for slaves that may to our eye seem unacceptable but they were progress from a standing start. God deals with his people progressively. We learn in other texts of the year of Jubilee when slaves were set free. We also learn in the New Testament of the need to treat slaves (bonded servants) well and encouragement for slaves to earn their freedom.
I hope this helps. The Bible is clear. God would have all men set free, first and foremost from the bondage of slavery to sin. For many that is pornography, those ordinary men around your neighbourhood funding a multi-billion dollar sex trade. For others it’s lying, stealing, blasphemy, looking with lust (adultery), or just unbelief. For others their slavery leads to the murder of their babies (200,000 in this county alone in 2011). I abhor slavery and am fighting it as best I can. First and foremost be discouraging people from funding the industry by cowardly viewing degrading pictures of abused women pretending to be enjoying themselves from anonymity of their homes.
Whitefield would be the first to admit he was a flawed character, and his decisions were imperfect. I don’t think you’ll find evidence to support your assertion that Whitefield thought slavery was godly. Slavery is immoral, I agree. The following from Dr Gary L Kellner is a useful summary:
‘… Bethesda was Whitefield’s personal response to the tragedy of orphaned children in Georgia. But his attitude toward black slavery shows his superficial understanding of social issues. He loved the slaves and took pains to spread the gospel to them. Yet, Whitefield encouraged the trustees of Georgia to introduce slavery to the struggling colony to foster economic development. On the slavery issue, Whitefield is a good illustration of the fact that effectiveness in evangelism is no guarantee of universal competence or insight.
Adrian,
Thank you so much for your response.
You said…
“The proof texting you used above needs context. These were the first laws laid down for slaves that may to our eye seem unacceptable but they were progress from a standing start.”
Does this mean that you believe that what made sense thousands of years ago doesn’t necessarily make so much sense in the context of today?
That the Word of the Lord should change according to circumstances?…
It really doesn’t matter what you or I believe, what matters is that we believe what is true. Therefore I’ll answer your question not by my own limited knowledge and experience but with the Bible. Psalm 119:160 says, ‘The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of your righteous judgements endures forever.’ Your question implies you have found an apparent contradiction in the Scripture. Given Psalm 119 along with 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21, we know that there are no contradictions, therefore we need examine all scripture to understand scripture.
The Levitical laws you refer to were given to govern the Jewish nation, along with the Temple Laws and the Moral Law, under the old covenant. The covenant was replaced by the new covenant at Jesus death, burial and resurrection (you might reasonably ask what covenant was in place between His physical death and resurrection but that’s for another day). When Jesus died the curtain to the holy of holies was torn in two, demonstrating that we no longer have to go through a priest to get to God but have direct access. Why therefore have the Old Testament? It gives us the historical narrative of human history, we learn principles, and see prophecy throughout foreshadowing Jesus. It is the Jewish Canon of Scripture , the most reliable ancient manuscripts known to mankind and is perfectly harmonised: 66 books, with 40 authors written over the course of around 2000 years.
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God, he was the fulfilment of all the laws and the prophets (Matthew 5:17) therefore there is no longer a need to for another sacrifice and there is no longer a temple to sacrifice in for it was destroyed in AD70. Before he died Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “it is finished” (John 19:30), meaning the work of salvation was complete, all was accomplished. We are under a new covenant, new promise and the promise is summarised in this, ‘that you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength and Love your neighbour as yourself, on these two hang all laws and the prophets Matthew 22: 34-40.’ The principle from all of Scripture would be to treat slaves as our neighbours, to love them and fight for their liberty. Did Whitefield recognise this? I don’t know, I hope to get to ask him.
So we are not bound by Levitical Laws, given to Israel and fulfilled by Jesus. However, we still have God’s Moral Laws, the Ten Commandments. These are a mirror which reflect our inclination to dishonour God, worship other things, lie, steal, lust, dishonour our parents, want stuff that others have (material as well as intellectual), and failure to take proper rest (sabbath). That’s the main idea. One day, sooner than we expect, you will stand before God to give an account for every thought, word and deed, he will judge you by his perfect standard, his law. Will you be innocent or guilty? God sees your thought life and into the desires of your soul. What will you say to him on the day of judgement?
Hi Adrian,
Thanks again for your post. I think I am beginning to understand.
As a Christian, I should accept the Old Testament as historical fact but ignore all instruction apart from the Ten Commandments.
So contrary to Exodus 34:26 I am allowed boil a young goat in its mother’s milk, but if I ever wish I had my neighbour’s bondservant, then I will be damned for all eternity. (Exodus 20:17)
We must all however follow all instructions given in the New Testament.
So slaves must be obedient to their masters with respect and fear, (Ephesians 6:5)
and must also regard their masters as worthy of honour. (1Timothy 6)
Adrian, are you sure when you say “The Bible is clear. God would have all men set free,” or that scripture teaches that we should “fight for their liberty,” because I have searched and searched the Bible trying to find a passage that backs this up.
Please let me know which part of the Bible shows God’s aversion to slavery.
Thanks again,
Chris
Cool, that’s a reasonable summary. The helpful passages in regard to God’s desire that all men be saved from all bondage, including indentured servitude include: Luke 4:18, 1 Corinthians 7:21, Tim. 2:3-4, and 2 Pet. 3:9. Of course, the Christian looks to Jesus Christ as the role model for understanding God’s abiding nature. He was in bondage to no man nor was any sin found in him, despite being tempted in every way that we are (Hebrews 4:18). He declared the truth, called out the religious professionals as greedy hypocrites, and for his bold proclamation of the Gospel, and call for men everywhere to repent and believe, was executed. He paid the penalty, the atonement, by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53), what Luther called the great exchange. We are no sinners, saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8), with Jesus Christ’s imputed righteousness, born again (1 Peter 1:22), new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), Simul Iustis et pecator.
Adrian,
Can I just question your reasoning for the Bible quotes given?…
2 Peter 3:9
This is about God destroying the Earth with fire and how he doesn’t want anyone to die.
This has nothing at all to do with slavery.
Luke 4:18 is where Jesus quotes from the book of Isaiah. Specifically Isaiah 61:1-2.
This has nothing to do with, “God’s desire that all men be saved from all bondage.” It is specifically about God’s chosen people regaining Zion. In fact Isaiah 60:10 explains how, ““Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you.” And 61:5 says, “foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.”
Isaiah 61 is called “The Year of the Lord’s Favour” because it explains how God will favour his chosen people. Isaiah 61:6 “You will feed on the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast.” This is clearly God condoning subjugation of other peoples, not the advert for God’s anti-slavery position as you maintain.
1 Corinthians 7:21
This has even less to do with anti-slavery. In fact it actually condones indentured servitude…
“20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.”
The meaning of the above is that if you are born a freeman you should remain a freeman and if you are born a servant, you should remain a servant! God does not care!
How on earth does this to show God’s position on anti- servitude?
Finally…
1Timothy 2:3-4
1 Timothy does discuss servitude but not in the way seem to imply.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 says that all men including kings may be saved and that pleases God. 1 Timothy 2:9-15 goes on to describe how women must not style their hair, wear jewellery or wear expensive clotthes; how women should keep quiet; how women should not be allowed to teach; how women must not have authority over men; how woman, not man, was responsible for sin; and how women may be saved as long as they bear children.
How can you possibly use this to show God’s disagreement on the subjugation of anyone? God quite clearly wishes to subjugate 50% of the population!
I’m afraid I am at a loss how you think any of the above quotes help to prove your case for God’s position against slavery.
It seems quite clear to me that George Whitefield was carrying out God’s will by bringing slavery back to Georgia
Chris.
If we reach conclusions after studying the Bible that run contrary to the character and nature of God then we are wrong and need to review our method. God’s character and nature is clearly seen in the atoning sacrifice of His Son, never was there a more loving act. To conclude God doesn’t care ignores the mercy he has shown mankind since the dawn of time when he made a clothes from animal skins for Adam and Eve after they sinned Genesis 3:20. The penalty for sin is death, without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin so the fact that we have life at all is a testimony to his abiding patience.
You have found some popular verses used for suggesting that the Bible seeks to subjugate women. However, that ignores the important role that women have played in God’s plan of salvation. From Eve, through Sarah, Rebekah, Ruth, Esther, Mary, Rahab the Prostitute, Lydia the seller of purple goods and many more. Read Proverbs 31 and on, that is not the picture of a subjugated woman. The Bible has been counter cultural throughout human history. When women were not deemed worthy to testify in court the Bible records that it was women who were the first to report of Jesus conquering death and being resurrected. Women are also image bearers of God, created with equal value, dignity and worth (Genesis 1:27).
The problem any unredeemed man faces is that he comes to the Bible as a purely intellectual act with a secular worldview. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God. It is through the person of the Holy Spirit, that we are able to study, understand and be taught the Gospel. It is hopeless until you come to terms with the fact that you are living in rebellion to Almighty God and his wrath remains upon you. If you’ve ever lied you are a liar, stolen, blasphemed, not honoured your parents, coveted, or committed adultery then you have broken his laws. He is a just judge, the perfect judge who knows your heart, your every thought. Hell is reasonable, it would be unloving for you to spend eternity anywhere else if you continue to wilfully reject the gift of grace offered at the Cross by Jesus Christ – http://www.whokilledgod.com
What a wonderful season, the Easter season, to get on you face before God, confess you are a sinner, say you are sorry, repent and put your faith and trust in the Saviour. He promises to give you a new heart, new desires and meaning in this temporal life on earth until you soon die and are taken home. ‘To live is Christ, to die is gain’ (Philippians 1:21). Eternity is written on your heart. I don’t want you to die and face darkness, falling in a bottomless pit, tormented forever in the lake of fire where the worm never dies. God poured out his own life’s blood so you don’t have to hear the dreaded words, ‘depart from my you worker of lawlessness I never knew you’ (Matthew 7:23). Rather hear the words, “well done good and faithful servant, welcome to thy rest”
Adrian,
I have quoted and put into context the exact same quotes as you suggested I read to show, “God’s desire that all men be saved from all bondage, including indentured servitude.”
I did not go seeking, “some popular verses used for suggesting that the Bible seeks to subjugate women.” They were in the same passage that you asked me to read! If you don’t want me to quote stuff from the Bible, don’t ask me to read it!
You say that, “if we reach conclusions after studying the Bible that run contrary to the character and nature of God then we are wrong and need to review our method.”
Also that, “the problem any unredeemed man faces is that he comes to the Bible as a purely intellectual act with a secular worldview.”…
… Well it seems to me that you believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God and should be taken literally word for word…
…apart from the huge swathes of the OT that you don’t like…
… Oh and the bits in the NT that seem a bit dodgy, only seem a bit dodgy if you are not a Christian. Christians therefore can see that the real meaning behind, ” I do not permit a woman to teach,” is actually, “I DO permit a woman to teach.”
You say that God, “is a just judge, the perfect judge,” and talk of, “the mercy he has shown mankind since the dawn of time.” However the Ten Commandments, (one of the word for word bits from the OT) says that, “for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.” – So all Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus will be damned. Not only that but their children, their grandchildren and their great grandchildren will all be damned… Even if they are good God-fearing Christians!
If God is perfect, why is he so jealous as to inflict such cruel eternal punishment upon innocents? (Or am I once again misinterpreting an exact word for word quote because I am unredeemed? I would love to know how letting God into my life could actually change the meaning of the written word.)
I think George Whitefield knew his Bible better than me and better than you. He knew God had no problem with slavery and even used the Bible to help justify slavery by writing, “the Gibeonites were doomed to perpetual slavery.”
I do not believe that Whitefield was the greatest Bristolian, I believe he was more than happy to enslave those he saw as inferior for personal gain. – If God’s chosen people could keep slaves, why not him?
The fact is Whitefield was just plain immoral.
I really appreciate your observations. The main thing to understand about the Bible is that it is true, breathed out by God and profitable for teaching…(2 Timothy 3:16). It is God’s Word so therefore axiomatic. Your error is to take scripture and draw the wrong conclusion. That’s because you come to it with your worldview. It matters not how well or clumsily I seek to show God’s love for women, you are persuaded by your worldview that I am wrong. The passages about women not adorning themselves is because God sees and appreciates their inner-beauty and wants that to be seen by a world that only sees the exterior, that judges on appearances. Ask a marketing executive, sex sells. Look at the multi-billion dollar porn industry or just turn on the telly! We live in world of mankind abusing, exploiting and neglecting women and girls. However, the unrepentant pornographer, overbearing husband, or bullying father will face ultimate justice.
God is a jealous God, He is absolutely the perfection of jealously. He is perfect, and to love anything more than him is to love a lesser thing and it would be unloving to allow that. He offers you himself, the very source of Love, for God is Love (1 John 4). Therefore,given you are openly living in rebellion to him, is it not reasonable, especially as he suffered, bled and died so that you could receive eternal life, for him to cause you to suffer for all eternity in the lake of fire for rejecting his kind offer? He give you the air you breathe, family, and sustenance and your response is to call him uncaring. Your pronouncements on Whitefield may be right, I am not the judge of his soul, however, you have the opportunity to examine your own heart in light of God’s moral law, the Ten Commandments. Are you moral? Will you be found innocent or guilty on that final day of judgement?
“Your error is to take scripture and draw the wrong conclusion.”
Adrian, your skillful arguments have me beat. I can see now that you are too clever for me.
I withdraw.
Now, now, I wasn’t seeking to be clever just draw out dialogue that exposes opposing worldviews and allows those spectating to decide for themselves. Thank you for your contribution.